Episode 2-How to Lead with Confidence: Clarity > Confusion
Episode 2 – Transcript
Ivan Konermann: 0:21
if you don’t know what you want to say to somebody there’s no chance in hell they’re going to know what you want to say to them
Cathy Maday: 0:28
welcome to leading without the bs unfiltered unapologetic unstoppable
Ivan Konermann: 0:32
performance this is going to be about cutting the confusion building confidence by leading with clarity
Cathy Maday: 0:39
I love that we’re going to spend some time on this today because right in front of my face when I’m working with leaders, I see them make these shifts as I’m working with them to literally cut the confusion and how it impacts them on so many different levels.
Ivan Konermann: 0:58
Yeah, yeah. And that clarity is so important. One of the things that I’ve said for As long as I can remember is, what does good look like? And so often, it’s not clear for people what good looks like. And so they’re going, I want to do a good job. I don’t know exactly what that means. And then they’re frustrated. The manager is frustrated because perhaps they haven’t said it. And so the person doesn’t get there. And yeah, it’s going to be a good discussion. I’m excited.
Cathy Maday: 1:24
Yeah, we’re glad you’re with us today. I’m Cathy, CEO of Wingspan Performance®. And this is Ivan.
Ivan Konermann: 1:31
Hey, I’m Ivan, Vice President and Advisor as well. So… Right, really good.
Cathy Maday: 1:36
Cool. So jump in and tell me a little bit about what you, as you were preparing for today’s episode. It’s a big one, actually. Clarity and competence. Yeah. Critical for how leaders are effective.
Ivan Konermann: 1:52
It is. And what hit me as I was thinking about this, getting ready for this conversation today, is that these things are so tightly coupled. And oftentimes… People don’t realize that they create confidence and clarity in themselves, and they do help create that in others as well when they are really thoughtful in how they’re sharing what good looks like, when they’re descriptive in what the end result is. And so often people don’t recognize how critical it is to slow down to really make sure that they’re being clear so that other people can go, okay, got it. I’m 90% locked into what you want. I can run off into one of
Cathy Maday: 2:33
that. Well, yeah, it’s, they’re usually way on the other end of the stick. They’re experienced when, when they start to put some attention on this, they’re experiencing some pain, a lot of stress, a lot of frustration because they’ve got these habits in autopilot. They’ve got these habits where it is, it’s fuzzy. So, so internally, definitely they’re not, feeling that confidence within themselves. And, of course, that just amplifies as it cascades throughout the team that they’re working with 360. Yeah.
Ivan Konermann: 3:06
It’s awesome you talk about the autopilot piece of it because I realize for as long as I can remember, I have done a bad job of this because we get going fast or especially when the pressure starts to ratchet up and I’m going in my head, I’m like, oh, crap, I don’t have time. to do a five minute handoff with Joe or with Amy. I just want to flip this over to them in 10 seconds so that they can start moving. And then later on, I realized I did such a bad job. I made so many assumptions that they would know what I know because it’s freaking obvious to me doesn’t mean it’s obvious to them. And that is so on, that’s so on my part.
Cathy Maday: 3:44
Well, and because we’re working with entrepreneurs and business leaders who act like entrepreneurs, right? Like you, people like you that have a lot of experience under your belt, the problem is exacerbated because any time that a person is operating in autopilot and they’ve got these tendencies around their language, making assumptions, which is usually tied with not asking questions, they’re also… Unaware.
Ivan Konermann: 4:15
Yeah.
Cathy Maday: 4:16
And so they’re unknowingly creating these really costly issues within team performance, within their own reputation and credibility completely by accident, of course. And so again, it’s, it’s not until they’re experiencing some of those symptoms, some of those painful experiences where they, they now turn their attention and realize just how important it is to communicate with Clary. Think clearly, with clarity. A lot of times, leaders will focus on how they’re communicating with other people, and really, it’s so critical that we create that clarity first internally. Of course, activating language, we’ll get into that. Activating language is key for how we’re thinking and talking to ourselves on our inside game, first and foremost.
Ivan Konermann: 5:09
Yeah. I had to laugh because I don’t remember where what I heard is. I distinctly remember though, I know if I said to somebody or someone said it to me, the phrase that stuck with me was, if you don’t know what you want to say to somebody, there’s no chance in hell they’re going to know what you want to say to them. Or what you’re saying. Yeah, or what you’re conveying. Because if you’ve been taking the time to get really clear, hey, this is the end goal, or this is the scope, or these are some key things to include or explain it. If you haven’t had that internal understanding I’ve even had that time to get clear internally, then it is highly unlikely you’re just going to suddenly poof and rise to the occasion in the moment and deliver this stunning, crystal clear conversation with somebody when you haven’t really been clear about it yourself.
Cathy Maday: 5:58
Yeah. Yeah. I was in a work session a couple of weeks ago. And there is some stress, a great deal of stress, frustration, and some big money was tied to some of the performance of project managers and, of course, their managers. And as we were going through the work session, several of the senior leaders were using a bunch of language that we– in the Wingspan system, we– using a little bit of humor, we call them illegal words, and of course, bull rap, you’ll hear about that later. They were using the you should and you need to, these habitual words, I think, I think you should, you gotta, you need to.
Ivan Konermann: 6:44
And
Cathy Maday: 6:45
so this language was coming from right in front of me, one, two, three, four senior leaders. And I said, timeout. And I said to the PM, or I asked the PM, I said, From what you’ve heard so far, is this an encouragement or a requirement? And he said, sounds like an encouragement or a suggestion.
Ivan Konermann: 7:09
And
Cathy Maday: 7:10
I turned to the rest of them and I said, this is exactly
Ivan Konermann: 7:14
the
Cathy Maday: 7:15
problem. All of this habitual bubble wrap language that creates confusion because now, first of all, Your PM wants to kick ass, wants to do a fantastic job. He’s taking advice from you, advice, suggestions, encouragement, rather than the clarity that this is a requirement for him to do this. And now, and I’m telling you the money part of this was big because the projects that they work on are huge or not. So it, yeah, it, Really great example, though, around how this can start. It can seemingly be, I don’t know, annoying or a lot of people will, when I prompt them on their language, in the beginning, a lot of leaders will think, oh, that’s just semantics. No, it isn’t. Not when you see how leaders around you, 360, are acting on what you’re saying.
Ivan Konermann: 8:17
Right. which is where to connect the clarity back in with the confidence piece. When you’re not clear, then most of the time, the other person isn’t confident because they’re going to pick up very quickly on that fuzzy language and go, well, and because also a lot of me combine that with people’s somewhat not completely, somewhat understandable reluctance to ask questions, then it becomes this real perfect storm of, I’m not really sure what it is they’re telling me to do. I’m only marginally confident. And so I might propose things with less clarity or I might propose things myself where I’m giving myself an out so that if the boss lady says, wait, that’s not at all what I wanted. It was like, okay, well, I was just fitballing. And so now it just gets worse. Those waves continue to ripple through the whole project, the whole program, the whole team.
Cathy Maday: 9:13
Well, I’ve been, yeah, I’ve been with so many teams in their real world work sessions where, again, leaders who are responsible for multi-million dollar P&Ls, like in six, seven figures. Yeah. Or at least seven, eight figures, I’ll say. And that senior leader is in the habit of, I think we should…
Ivan Konermann: 9:37
Yeah.
Cathy Maday: 9:37
Or we need to. And I literally am watching the leaders around them turn to each other like, was that decided?
Ivan Konermann: 9:44
Yeah.
Cathy Maday: 9:45
Are we doing
Ivan Konermann: 9:45
that? Yeah. Who’s got what?
Cathy Maday: 9:48
Yeah. We
Ivan Konermann: 9:49
need
Cathy Maday: 9:50
to. When did this get decided? So now, and you’ve got 500, you know, teams of 500 to 1,000 and more acting on what this leader is saying, making decisions. So they’re not confident. Yeah. Certainly, there’s additional hesitation because a senior bus leader doesn’t sound confident. It brings up a whole mass issue with productivity and performance.
Ivan Konermann: 10:18
Yeah. So let’s jump into a few things that people can do to start to understand better what is actually happening for them, some tripwires for them that have to hear themselves say something or someone else say something that they can begin to go, oh, hey, wait a minute, I That’s getting into some of the illegal language space. They may not be clear. I’m certainly not clear. And so how do you jump into that? One thing that Kathy’s already hit on that’s important for everybody to catch is that illegal language. So if you’re using phrases like, I think, we need to,
Cathy Maday: 10:49
we should. I think, I feel, I believe. And I think you’re going to be shocked at how difficult it is to take this out of your vocabulary.
Ivan Konermann: 11:00
Yeah.
Cathy Maday: 11:00
Yeah.
Ivan Konermann: 11:01
Yeah. So those are key because it’s not a clear directive. It’s not a do this. It’s also not a, a lot of times, I know you’ve seen this. I have a leader who’s got a $185 million program. He has now 285 days left to finish and check the block on this massive, massive program. And he’s realizing how much we need to is kicking himself and the team right in the ass. And so if you hear that, it’s a great spot to go, hold on, how much is that a directive and how much is this a suggestion? Because a lot of times those senior leaders want to have input, they want to help, only they’ll suggest without making it clear that it is an idea, that it can be modified or even discarded by the team.
Cathy Maday: 11:49
Also, $185 million project, how many team members directly working on it with him?
Ivan Konermann: 11:56
Oh, golly. I want to say his direct team is in the 12-ish.
Cathy Maday: 12:01
Yeah.
Ivan Konermann: 12:01
And then there’s other people, ancillary, of course.
Cathy Maday: 12:03
So double whammy, we. Who the hell does that mean? Yeah. We, we, who? Yeah. And then need to, need to, we are for sure. Yeah. And so, and of course, the problem is, so it’s the habit of it.
Ivan Konermann: 12:21
Yeah.
Cathy Maday: 12:21
And so for sure, one of the places that, for you to put some attention so that you can create clarity. And right on the heels of that, that confidence comes, is to absolutely start to remove the we, for sure. We need to, should, have to. That’s language that, again, we call illegal words. Because when you’re using that language, you’re instantly creating confusion accidentally. And then you’re slowing down progress. And again, the costs are, they compound over time.
Ivan Konermann: 12:57
Yeah. The, the way I like to think about it, both for myself, when I’m speaking to our team members or to what I’m helping leaders is to make it crystal clear. This is a directive or this is a, go back to a military time. This is an order and go do X. This isn’t awkward.
Cathy Maday: 13:13
This is non-negotiable.
Ivan Konermann: 13:14
Our negotiation. Yeah,
Cathy Maday: 13:16
exactly. This has been decided.
Ivan Konermann: 13:17
Yep. This
Cathy Maday: 13:18
is the decision.
Ivan Konermann: 13:19
Yep. Other language though, where it’s an idea is to make sure that, Because so often, again, I agree to a phrase years ago, which I love, which is admiral, general, don’t whisper. And so the idea is that when they speak, people take it as direct orders of, oh, my gosh, you just said, well, what if we did this? And they just run with it. So if it’s an idea, be sure to say out loud. hey, we couldn’t do this. That’s just an idea. It’s not necessarily that we do exactly that. And there’s great questions to ask on the backside to make it clear that you’re willing to have an idea messed with or are scrambled up a bit and changed so that it’s even better.
Cathy Maday: 13:58
Yeah. And before we get into the questions piece, so let’s make sure, definitely we’re going to provide you a link to our download around bubble wrap. You’re going to get that cheat sheet because as soon as you start to remove all of what we call bubble wrap from your vocabulary, you’re automatically gonna increase your clarity. And here’s what’s really fantastic, and I’ve got a couple specific examples from last week, and this happens on a weekly basis, is right in front of me, I’ve got one of these leaders, director, Again, she’s a badass. She’s in the habit, though, of saying, I think, I think, I think. Well, now she doesn’t sound confident. So the people that she’s advising, the CEO, the CFO, the people that she’s advising or making recommendations to, anytime you’re introducing friction like that, hesitation, if you’re not coming across clear and confident, They’re not going to give you those approvals that you’re searching for. So hold on. And then this is what happens, though, is I’ll prompt, remove, I think. And as soon as she changes her language, because it’s accurate, she’s like, yes. When I said, take out, I think, she’s like, yes, I don’t think. I know. And as soon as she said, I know, she just sat up straight. And she was just so much more. So number one, it’s more accurate.
Ivan Konermann: 15:31
Yeah. For yourself.
Cathy Maday: 15:33
For yourself. For yourself. It’s how she felt. Yeah. And how, of course, what she was conveying as soon as she changes this language. And I really, truly want for you as you start to remove this bubble wrap language, I’m really excited for you to start feeling that shift that’s possible. It’s immediately you feel more confident.
Ivan Konermann: 15:56
Yeah.
Cathy Maday: 15:56
Because of the clarity.
Ivan Konermann: 15:57
It’s funny how often we, and I mean, we like humans, everybody. I still find myself catching myself a bit sometimes is when I’m not as clear from myself. I don’t realize that I don’t come across as confident. And as soon as I can tighten that up, oh, I know exactly what I’m going for, exactly what I’m wanting to do. To your point, I’m going to deliver it in a much more… authoritative way. People are going to get it. People are going to go, Oh, he knows exactly what he’s, he’s looking for. And they’re going to be able to, to get up and, and they’re going to be confident in running with it.
Cathy Maday: 16:31
Well, here’s the other thing too. It’s not just, you’re not only going to have that clarity and confidence when you know exactly what you’re going to do. You can have that clarity and confidence when you know that you don’t know. So, so being able to say, I have no idea. Yeah. Or I am, 30% on this. I am, when you’re clear that you’re guessing, or when you’re clear, hey, I’m making an assumption. I’m throwing what Heather says, like spitballing and yeah, yeah. You’re throwing pasta, see if it sticks. That’s the one I use. And so when you’re clear that you don’t know and that’s where you’re at, it doesn’t, it’s amazing. Because now, too, you do a great job, a fantastic job of enlisting the people around you to jump in rather than the whole dancing around it. I mean, the habit of dancing around it, whether you know or don’t know,
Ivan Konermann: 17:33
for sure. So let’s jump into a couple of sets of questions, both from the leader and then from the other person’s perspective. As a leader, one of the things I’d like to ask team members is, hey, how confident are you from one to 100 in what we just talked about? And what I love about this is, and I really don’t give a shit what their number is. If they say seven or 97, that’s not what I get all excited about. What I then ask is, oh, okay, great. So if you’re X percentage, Confident
Cathy Maday: 18:05
is- 7%.
Ivan Konermann: 18:06
Yeah, 7%. Okay, well, what’s in that 7%? Yeah. So now it’s helping them to connect. Also, I’m getting a little bit of a back brief. So they go, oh yeah, you said to do this. And then they heard something that actually wasn’t what I meant. Or perhaps they heard something that I did say. And I was like, oh gosh, no, I meant that a different way. So it’s a great chance to get a little bit of a back brief from them on what they’re thinking. And then I can just simply say, okay, what’s in that other 93% in this case? And that’s where I get to hear from people oh, well, I don’t know what this means, or I’m not sure how to do that, or I don’t know who to reach out to for such and such. Okay, awesome. Now we can start to choose which of those pieces to play with. And I’m getting clearer about where that person is recognizing that, oh, gosh, I don’t have this information, and it’s really actionable. Now we know how to close the gap.
Cathy Maday: 18:51
Well, what’s really powerful about that, too, is that whole clarity and commonness go hand in hand.
Ivan Konermann: 18:56
Yeah.
Cathy Maday: 18:57
If you were to change the question to, On a scale of one to 100, how clear are you? That’s actually a tougher question to answer versus on a scale of one to 10, how confident are you? Because now we get to tap into that inner knowing and the sense and the feeling someone’s having like, oh, 7% confident. And then get the clarity from there versus if you change those questions around.
Ivan Konermann: 19:25
Yeah. And I know the seven was really low. I’ve never had anybody actually say it’s something that looks most of the
Cathy Maday: 19:30
time. Here’s where it’s awesome, though. What’s fantastic, though, is the seven gives clarity. That initial answer is really…
Ivan Konermann: 19:40
Well, hang on a second. Where I’m going, though, is if somebody says, oh, I’m 65% confident in what’s going on, then what that does is, again, it gives a great spot to play with. Okay, well, what are you basing that 65% on? And then… Another question to ask is, what would it take to move that from a 65 to an 85? And I like that question because now that person says to me, if you can describe this or you can lay out a little more of that, I’m going to feel a lot better about exactly what you’re wanting. Okay, awesome. Now I’ve got some real tight targets to hit. And then I can ask, okay, so how are you feeling now? Oh, yeah, definitely 85. In fact, I’m even 90%. That’s plenty good. to give them a high five and they can get off running, working on this thing.
Cathy Maday: 20:25
Yeah, well, you’re inviting more of that exchange rather than, again, a lot of leaders, what do you say, the generals don’t whisper? Yeah, generals
Ivan Konermann: 20:36
don’t whisper, generals don’t recommend is another, yeah.
Cathy Maday: 20:38
Well, there’s something really important because that’s relevant for all of you. All of you as entrepreneurs and business leaders, you often are completely underestimating to what extent people turn to you and listen closely to what you’re saying. And so I would say you’re not whispering either. And this is in your everyday performance. People are listening closely to what you’re saying.
Ivan Konermann: 21:02
And
Cathy Maday: 21:02
so coming back to, I love that first start in that language. So really focusing on some of your language that you’re habitually using it, starting to take that out, and then starting to use more clear language. That’s a whole set thing. of tools for, you know, tangible tools for you to use. And now this piece on questions, questions helps because you said it earlier, like making assumptions. There are lots of ways that we habitually create confusion. And then, of course, we don’t have that confidence is we’re making assumptions and we’re not asking questions.
Ivan Konermann: 21:41
I actually did this this morning already with one of our team members. I asked her to gin up a starting point for something. And she just wrote back and said, how exactly are you defining Jenna? And I just, I laughed and I was like, oh my gosh, silly me. To me, that’s language I’ve used. I don’t know where I got it from. Just I’m used to like, hey, let’s get something going. And I just wrote back, oh, sorry, my bad. That was, that doesn’t mean we’ll start something. Yeah,
Cathy Maday: 22:04
thankfully she knows to ask
Ivan Konermann: 22:07
questions. She does, which is that spot of when people do ask questions, it’s so critical that you as the leader are Saying, hey, it’s great you’re asking questions. I’ll clarify this so that we’re on track with what you know and where you do want additional information.
Cathy Maday: 22:22
It’s worth repeating. I want to make sure you heard what Ivan said. He didn’t say, so what we’re encouraging you to practice is not to say, that’s a great question. Yeah. Even if it is. Even if it’s a great question. He’s encouraging you to acknowledge they’re asking questions. Don’t acknowledge the question. Acknowledge the behavior of them asking questions. Yep.
Ivan Konermann: 22:48
Yeah. Nailed it.
Cathy Maday: 22:49
And so, yeah. So phrases for you to use. Hey, I’m so glad you’re asking. Or asking questions is how we keep getting clear. There are different phrases that you can use so that you’re reinforcing that your team members are in the practice of asking questions.
Ivan Konermann: 23:10
Yeah, and that you’re good with it because a lot of times people will ask a question and they’re doing a little bit of the, yeah, let’s see how this goes. Let’s see if they’re a cool cat or if they turn into the Incredible Hulk and get all nutty about it. Because if you do the latter, people are not going to ask questions.
Cathy Maday: 23:28
Here’s the other way that you’re going to influence the people around you to ask more questions is at the end of whatever, maybe it’s in a town hall or it’s in a weekly team meeting, do not, do not say, any questions? Instead, say, what questions do you have? Here’s another one. I want to hear two questions. What are your questions?
Ivan Konermann: 23:55
Yeah.
Cathy Maday: 23:55
I’ll put a number and I’ll advise leaders, put a number on it. And then that way they follow through and they make sure that they get at least two questions from the team. And of course, once the first person asks, and then you’re saying, oh, so glad you’re bringing that up, John. blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you go from there. Oh yeah. They’re, they’re not hesitant anymore. You’re priming the punk so that they’re in the practice of asking
Ivan Konermann: 24:21
questions. I love that. Another thing I’ve done with folks is to say, Hey, now we’re going to go back and review the parts of this. Where do you want to start? What parts of this was, was least clear? Where do you want to put more attention so that everyone in here is getting more information, more clarity, because certainly something was left out of some piece. So I like to make that you hear heads is kind of like a little, oh yeah, certainly something was left out or I’m confident I didn’t communicate some piece of this as fully as I intended to. That’s a great way to just lower the bar so people don’t feel like they’re going to the boss and saying, hey, you just pooched describing this part of the conversation and we’re confused. You’re the one who knows what the hell is going on. It just makes it a lot easier for people to go, Yeah, part three where you talked about the delivery time schedule. Let’s go back there. Okay, great. Yeah, so glad you’re bringing that up. Let’s jump back in. What questions did you have?
Cathy Maday: 25:17
Yeah. Well, and so many, you know, all of you, entrepreneurs, business professionals, you are daily, weekly, you are distributing responsibilities or handing out tasks, delegating tasks. And when you’re doing that, again, the habit that because the combination of the language, habitual language, as well as the not asking questions in those exchanges is that there’s a lot of confusion that’s accidentally created. And then, of course, hesitation and delay and all these other things in terms of. human performance on the heels of it. And so when you are distributing responsibilities or assigning tasks or delegating something, a really important question, especially if say it’s new, maybe it’s a new team member, maybe it’s a contractor that you’re working with or where the responsibility is new for the team member, that after you’re handing this off, handing this, okay, Ivan, you now own this, Really important questions. What part of this are you really confident in? And what part of this do you anticipate is going to be sticky or is going to be challenging? Or I’ll say, what part of this are you feeling really solid and confident about? What part of this are you concerned about?
Ivan Konermann: 26:41
Yeah. Yeah. I like both of those sets of questions. Those are fantastic ways to get people so that they’re sharing. Also, hear how Kathy asked a question. The most important thing for leaders to do, though, is to ask that question and then Stop talking. Just give that person a minute because they’re likely, I mean, I certainly can go back in the Wayback Machine and remember times where my manager or somebody who was an important man I worked with asked me a question about where I wasn’t clear on something or I wasn’t confident in something. And I remember thinking to myself, shit, I’m not so sure what’s on my boss. I’m confused as heck on this part of this part. And sometimes there’s that little internal conversation And so by asking the question as a manager and then just, yeah, what part of this do you want to focus on? What part do you want to
Cathy Maday: 27:31
discuss? No, ask the question and
Ivan Konermann: 27:32
then start. No, no, my point is, yeah, ask the question and then just turning away, giving them a second, drink some water, giving them a second to get right with themselves so that they can jump into, yeah, let’s go on to section four. So one other thing that you’re… I’m sure everyone who’s hearing this, and we certainly are running into his, where the situations where there’s a standard for something. So if there’s a standard operating procedure for how to get a particular thing done, you get to lean on that. So you can tell somebody, hey, make sure you’re doing this just like we get set up in our SOP around item X. Yes. What I also like to do is to say, hey, we’re going to start with that as a starting point. We’re going to make some minor tweaks. So now for me, it’s crystal clear. We’re going to make some tweaks. I got to say out loud.
Cathy Maday: 28:18
And not we. Well, we as a
Ivan Konermann: 28:21
business. Yeah, absolutely. So I’m going to say, hey, we’re going to make some tweaks to this. You and I. Please go ahead. And I literally did this this morning. Please take our SOP for this. Put that into a document. And then we’re going to figure out the changes. Go ahead and get that started and send that over to me. And so that way, it’s you own this piece, I own that piece, and this is what it’s going to look like when we’re done. I’m leaning, though, on a great established starting point.
Cathy Maday: 28:46
Yeah, yes. And referring to SOPs or processes or policies or protocols, whatever is established and clear, referring to those and leaning on them for sure. Yeah. And you probably saw me too. I was prompting Ivan on the we. Even if you’re speaking one-on-one, here it’s mind-blowing what a difference you and I is from we. Yeah, true. Because we, if you’re talking to one of our team members, we’re going to build on this or we’re going to change this. You know, Amy might think that’s Kathy and Ivan.
Ivan Konermann: 29:24
Yeah, yeah, no way.
Cathy Maday: 29:26
And so definitely this is why we, in our activating language framework within the Wingspan system, it is strongly encouraged that you get really deliberate with you, I, and we. I continue to hear from leaders all over the place that they were strongly encouraged to say we. Yes. Build a team and have that team spirit. We’re inclusive. There has been so much really awful training and feedback that leaders have been given over the years. And that’s one of them. And so much, much more clear. And then everyone’s much more confident when it’s a you and I versus a we.
Ivan Konermann: 30:20
Yeah. So on the receiving end, so if you’re getting something from a manager and they’re not making it clear, this is a great spot to ask them some
Cathy Maday: 30:28
questions. Or from a customer even. We’re getting something from a customer. Let’s start with a
Ivan Konermann: 30:32
team member first. We’re getting from the manager side and then from the team member side. So if you’re getting something from your manager and it’s not clear, that’s a great spot to start to ask them some questions. Hey, hold on. Let’s go back a minute. And here’s one of the phrases that that I encourage folks to make a note of, because this is where you’re creating the safety for yourself to jump back in. depending on who they are, type of managers who haven’t always liked being questioned. It’s a great spot to point out that you’re asking questions to make sure that you’re hitting the mark. So I’ve learned to say, hey, let’s go back to a couple pieces in here. I want to make sure I understand what good looks like, so I’m delivering exactly what you’re expecting. When I say that, now it’s really hard for a manager to go, no, forget that shit. You know I’m not asking any questions, buddy. Just go out and do it. I’ve already indicated I’m
Cathy Maday: 31:21
not going to do it. I want to give you exactly what you want. Oh, okay.
Ivan Konermann: 31:25
Exactly. so many managers I’ve worked with, when I say that, they just sit right up in the chair of a, heck yeah, let me make sure you know exactly what to do so you’re nailing this thing on the head.
Cathy Maday: 31:36
Also, here’s another thing that comes across when you say that. It’s your confidence.
Ivan Konermann: 31:41
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Cathy Maday: 31:42
You are very clear that you’re asking these questions for this reason. Yeah. I want to give you exactly what you expect. Yeah. And when you’re saying that before you ask the question… Your confidence is coming through. You might not even realize how evident it was when you just had that real
Ivan Konermann: 32:03
quick illustration. And for everyone at home, the reason I use that language is because it’s not about me. I want to know more about this job. I’m not clear on this piece because that’s my personal jam. If I make it about what the other person wants, what in the hell is my leader wanting to get out of this? What is the team hoping to accomplish? And I could really dive into that piece. Now it’s not about me feeling better. Now it’s about, hey, manager, I want to make sure I’m giving you exactly what you’re wanting. And so now we’re linking my getting clarity to them getting what they want. So that’s a subtle piece. I just want to shine a little bit of light on that, though.
Cathy Maday: 32:39
Yeah. And side benefit, you feel better all of a sudden. Oh, absolutely. Because of that. Again, going back to that clarity and confidence.
Ivan Konermann: 32:47
Yeah, absolutely.
Cathy Maday: 32:51
Yeah.
Ivan Konermann: 32:51
All right. Looking at some of our no’s, some of the other things that shows up is when people do ask questions, they tend to ask pretty poor questions, and those get into yes and no’s. So they’ll say, hey, do you want this? Or sometimes they’ll say, do you want A or do you want B? And the manager’s thinking, actually, I didn’t want
Cathy Maday: 33:09
either of those
Ivan Konermann: 33:10
things. I want F.
Cathy Maday: 33:12
Yeah.
Ivan Konermann: 33:12
Yeah. So that’s where sometimes it can be really valuable. Sometimes almost all the time is going to be very valuable to get out of that is an A or B mindset and say, hey, it sounded like you’re looking for this kind of a thing when you talked about X. What is it you actually want? Yeah.
Cathy Maday: 33:29
In the Wingspan performance system, another core framework within the whole system is what we call advancing questions. And this is where you’re in the habit. I know for a fact you are in the habit because every single leader that I have worked with over the past 23 years in every organization has the habit of asking a bunch of yes or no questions. You are in the habit of asking a bunch of yes or no questions. It’s causing confusion. It’s slowing you down. They’re highly inefficient. And you actually don’t come across confident. And you’re super slow to actually create that clarity. And so that’s one thing that we, in the advancing questions, take seriously. 95% of those yes or no questions and throw them out and instead switch over. And those either or questions too, they limit. So if you’re, and you’re also in the habit, again, unless you’re this really strange anomaly in thousands and thousands of CEOs and business owners that I’ve worked with, you’re in the habit of asking those either or. Sometimes we… we’re not conveying our competence
Ivan Konermann: 34:50
and
Cathy Maday: 34:51
certainly not our confidence when we’re in the habit of those yes those either or or the yes or no questions
Ivan Konermann: 34:58
yeah
Cathy Maday: 34:59
and so switch switching them over to what what we call advancing questions and starting with a start with a what or how for example
Ivan Konermann: 35:08
those two oh in fact what and how are the best places to start hey What part of this are you not clear on? How else can we talk about this so that you’re walking away more confident in this?
Cathy Maday: 35:19
How are you considering starting
Ivan Konermann: 35:23
on this?
Cathy Maday: 35:25
Yeah. So that does wonders in terms of as soon as leaders start to ask those advancing questions, again, their confidence comes through because now they’re not operating out of habit, out of autopilot. They’re thoughtful leaders. And they’re creating that clarity. They’re clear.
Ivan Konermann: 35:45
Yeah.
Cathy Maday: 35:45
And they’re creating that clarity because they’re they’re deliberate.
Ivan Konermann: 35:48
Yeah. Here’s what I bet every every person has heard. And I listen to a lot of podcasts. I listen to a good bit of interviews and so many questions or yes or no questions. And then the person, actually, so many questions are either yes or no questions. The second thing is questions are just run a lot. It’s, I call it the big back of questions. It’s question, question, question, questioning. You just put two buns on either side and some sauce and give it to the person. And I’ve literally heard the guests on podcasts say out loud, which question do you want me to answer first? And Harvey’s like, holy freaking moly, dude, if you’re the interviewer, that would be a giant splashing sign of your questions could use some work. So for all of you, you’re probably used to asking questions like, hey, is this good? And it’s too big because the person…
Cathy Maday: 36:38
The
Ivan Konermann: 36:39
person that you’re asking that of is probably going, they’ll probably pause. You’re undoubtedly going to see them pause because this is what’s going probably on inside of the brain. Well, this part is really good. This part is way the hell off track. Yeah, I like that. This thing is missing. I can’t believe it’s not in there. And so all these voices are going on in their heads and that’s how come they’re probably pausing. Whereas if you say, hey, I’m understanding this to be the key. Where is this on track or what else? Yeah. would help us be better. It’s a tighter question. You’re going to get much more specific information and much more quickly. But then, of course, you can flip it the other way. Hey, what’s on track? And then what’s off track?
Cathy Maday: 37:18
Yeah, yeah,
Ivan Konermann: 37:19
for
Cathy Maday: 37:19
sure. Which, by the way, when you are asking someone, what’s off track? Or hey, where is, here’s my plan. Where do you see it’s going to fall down?
Ivan Konermann: 37:29
When
Cathy Maday: 37:31
you’re the one in charge. of asking the clear questions that invite someone to find the holes. Again, that’s that confidence coming through. And so again, they go hand in hand together.
Ivan Konermann: 37:47
Pending a tiny bit, taking this question concept and then applying it internally. One of the questions that, it took me a little while because I’m a slow burn sometimes. One of the questions I’ve used to help myself prep is what might the other person not know? So often, it’s easy, and I’ve done this so many times, and it’s just frustrating to myself. Now I ask myself this question, what might the other person not know? And when I ask myself that, it helps me back up a step, get out of my assumptions about 100%. It helps me get out of at least some of them, or hopefully most of them, so that I can go, oh, gosh, if I’m handing this off to Steph, what might she not know? Oh, she probably doesn’t understand this. She might not be on this email trail. She might not have… this historical knowledge of the situation to know this is what’s going to be key when we do these things. So now it just helps me back up a step, pull out of this one little message and go back to, oh my gosh, how else do I want to season this or add some things or trim some things so that she could walk away as clear and as confident as possible in how to execute that.
Cathy Maday: 38:55
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s important to draw this line that In our conversation today, we talked about activating language and how that is key. First of all, habitual language, and then instead activating language, how that’s key for creating clarity, cutting the confusion, and then, of course, building confidence. We talked about advancing questions and how those are also so essential in terms of accomplishing this. And the illustrations that we used were mostly you with other people. Now it’s really important to take notice that Ivan is shifting gears. Anytime that you’re interacting with other people, we call that your outside game. Ivan’s just shift gears and this is really important. Now we’re turning it to our inside game. Yeah. And, uh, well I use, I use one like inside game example earlier. So our, the inside game is how are you communicating with yourself?
Ivan Konermann: 39:56
Yep.
Cathy Maday: 39:57
How, how are you thinking and talking to yourself? That’s where, all of your performance is coming from, it’s the most important place to practice these things. It’s with yourself, actually not with other people. And so this piece here, Ivan, you talk about how you’re using advancing questions with yourself. I will also, I’ll give you guys a couple of examples. I will also ask myself, what am I not saying out loud?
Ivan Konermann: 40:24
And
Cathy Maday: 40:25
that’s been super helpful in, Because I also, I’m very, some of you might know, I’m super impatient. And so I will.
Ivan Konermann: 40:37
She’s not kidding. She’s not kidding.
Cathy Maday: 40:39
And so I’ll definitely have the, I’ll make assumptions. And I’m, you know, will tend to not slow myself down enough. So what am I not saying out loud? And even,
Ivan Konermann: 40:51
yeah. You took it real fast. Yeah. That impatience is probably insanely common for people the small business owners, for the entrepreneurs, for the people who have huge amounts of responsibility, because you have got this, let’s get some shit done, and you have this bias. Pressure and pressure. Pressure, bias for action, high responsibility, all those things rolled in a beautiful little burrito that you eat every day, and you’re probably thinking, let’s go, and then it’s an easy spot to mentally get a couple steps ahead of where other people are, and then, I’ve done this, then it’s confusion and frustration, in WTF and all those pieces without recognizing, oh, dang it, I accidentally contributed to this because I didn’t slow down. I didn’t consider what they know or didn’t know. And if I had done that, it would have made this so much easier. An easy place to start with squeeze a little piece of an easy place to start is I’ll tell everybody I reread almost, I reread probably 95% of my emails, even short emails internally, I work I’ll write them, and then I’ll work to go back and say, okay, how clear is this? Where can I tighten this up? What might they already know that I can realize, oh, geez, I can just tune, I can just chop that bit out. Because if I’m telling them stuff they already know, they’re probably going to read it and go to autopilot and be like, snoozer, and just whatever, whatever, not actually read it the way I want them to be. And then also, hey, what have I not said that I know already? is important about this situation, but I want to make sure I’m bringing forward more clearly or more completely.
Cathy Maday: 42:28
Yeah, yeah. So when you’re rereading your emails, you’re asking yourself some questions. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and that’s one of the most… I’m going to say the best place. Well, what leaders say. So as leaders are learning activating language and they’re putting these things into practice to build confidence and higher performance within their teams, they’re rereading their emails. They’re taking out all the bubble wrap. They’re taking out all the illegal words. Or at least the vast
Ivan Konermann: 42:57
majority.
Cathy Maday: 42:58
Yeah, yeah. And that’s where they really get some good traction and start to create some momentum in their practice so that they’re getting out of autopilot. I want to go back, though, to the questions that we’re asking ourselves, because, I mean, you might be in the same exact place I am. You talked about entrepreneurs, business owners, really so many of the leaders we work with, whether they are CEO, the business owner, or they work in a big organization, they act and think like CEOs and entrepreneurs of their own business. And if you’re like me, I am constantly in new territory where I do not know what the F I’m doing. And so questions that all, I mean, I’m just constantly learning. And sometimes it gets a little overwhelming. And so some questions that I’ll ask myself is I’ll stop and I’ll say, okay, What parts of this do I know for sure? And all right. Well, what parts of this are similar to something I’ve done already or similar to something that we’ve been doing within the business? Because when I’m looking at the thing… I am absolutely not confident. I am perceiving the challenge to be really high and my current ability to be very low. And I’m absolutely teetering and dipping in and out of the stress zone. And so asking myself those questions is how I actually get myself out of the stress zone into the performance zone. And I start to chunk it up and asking those questions. as I’m chunking it up and I’m getting again, again, getting clear on what I do know and getting clear on what I don’t know
Ivan Konermann: 44:53
and
Cathy Maday: 44:54
getting clear on, I’m not even sure if I know what I don’t know, like I will still chunk it up. And that clarity within myself is how I, you know, I’m able to get myself a little more stable and stop freaking out and Because I do that, I would say, on a weekly basis. And then I’m able to get traction. And the big part that we don’t talk about a lot of times, though, I’m able to see myself and my abilities clearly. Because I start to, you know, when it’s a big… When it’s big and overwhelming or the list is, we talked about that just this morning, like, oh my gosh, my list is so big. And when it’s just big, it’s this big amoeba and it’s overwhelming because it’s not clear. How I see myself is not clear.
Ivan Konermann: 45:49
What I want to play with as we’re heading towards wrapping this up is for everyone to also remember that because I’ve seen this, I had a leader last week who said on the call, I want to be a hundred percent clear how to like, if you’re a hundred percent clear on almost anything, you’ve probably spent too much time on this. So I like to use the, Hey, what’s, what’s good enough so that I can, I can proceed. I can proceed even just to the next
Cathy Maday: 46:19
step and do a better job of that. We, we do, we like our wingspan team does a better job instead of what, you know, what’s good enough. Cause that’s still fuzzy. We use percentages. So Ivan will or I will with the team. I’m shooting for a 90%. I’m shooting for a 90%. Get 90% on this deliverable and then bring it to me. And then you and I will walk through it. Then we’ll shoot for percentages. And that is more clear in helping people to know what good looks like.
Ivan Konermann: 46:51
What we also do, and this is something I encourage everyone that we make a note of this, we’ll identify it. by my phases. Hey, for this phase, we want to get to where we’re 90% clarity so that we can be rocking and rolling. And then some of the people will say, what happens when we get to step seven? We’ll figure that shit out when we get to step six, because right now we’re at step three. And as long as we’re good enough on step three, let’s kick butt on step three. Now, sometimes there are things where people will say, well, I want at least some kind of a vision or a direction. And I like to compare that to the hurricane charts where, yeah, it’s probably going to be here. In reality, it could be anywhere inside of this cone. This is ish for the direction of what it’s going to be. And now people can at least perceive knowing, okay, this is ish. I’m 60% confident this is where this is going to be. So I now know how much perhaps time and energy to put into this or how much effort so that I can… hit, hit the mark enough or be ready enough to adjust or to have something to build on.
Cathy Maday: 47:51
Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s clear enough. It’s like, um, you’re making it clear that we currently see it as this and we know full well that as, as the team works in that direction, it’s going to, it’s going to, yeah, it’s going to shape up and then, yeah, it might, it might, it’s, It’s going to move a little bit.
Ivan Konermann: 48:15
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s okay. I like to say that out loud to folks of, yep, we’re moving in this direction and we’re going to figure those things out. Yeah. Yeah. So…
Cathy Maday: 48:24
go
Ivan Konermann: 48:24
ahead. Yeah. So we’ve talked about removing some bubble wrap. So we’re talking about…
Cathy Maday: 48:28
An illegal word.
Ivan Konermann: 48:29
Yep. We’re talking about creating clarity that’s often connected very, very tightly to creating confidence, both in ourselves and in others. So we’ve talked about removing bubble wrap, removing…
Cathy Maday: 48:38
And there’s a cheat. So in fact, we’ll make sure that there’s a link for you to download our bubble wrap cheat sheet. It’s a perfect place to start immediately and raise your game and raise your performance for your confidence. Free. Everyone’s
Ivan Konermann: 48:54
favorite. Full letter F word. Free. So that’s a great place to start. Also, watch the questions. Watch the questions with other people. Watch the questions with yourselves so that you’re asking more thoughtful, more deliberate questions that have an outcome that you can actually utilize and do something with, including challenging yourself with, hey, what am I not saying? Or what else, what might this person not know so that you’re helping them understand the situation better?
Cathy Maday: 49:22
Yeah, yeah, I love it. That’s what leaders continue to really love and value about the Wingspan approach is that tools to immediately deploy and take advantage of and capitalize on for your performance And I said it earlier, I’m really excited for you all to experience and feel that confidence as you continue to create clarity within yourself and with the people around you.
Ivan Konermann: 49:52
So encourage all you to, as you’re working through the day, a couple of easy things. One, reread some emails. You’re going to know which ones. It might not be all of them. Start somewhere, though. Reread at least, I like to say, at least two in the morning and two in the afternoon. That’s a good starting point. When it comes to verbal exchanges, because so often people will say, okay, I can do this in email because I have time to write it and then think about it and ponder or perhaps go take a break and work on something else and then come back. In conversations, though, it’s just pow, pow, pow, and all of a sudden, crap, I said a bunch of stuff that I didn’t really intend to say. So what I encourage people to do is prepare for those conversations. Come in with some notes. Have yourself a little bit of a cheat sheet to say, Exactly what you want to say. What are some of the questions you want to makeCathy Maday: 50:38
clear? I say sound bites. Yeah, sound bites. Little bullet points or sound bites. So when you’re deciding ahead of time, some of those phrases or key statements you want to say, it will help you not out of habit and autopilot say, I think, and we need to, and we should.
Ivan Konermann: 50:55
Phrases and questions. So the dynamic duo there, activating language and your advancing questions, that’s going to You’re going to feel so much better. I know because I still do this myself. When I go into really hard conversations, I prep specific notes and specific language. Yeah,
Cathy Maday: 51:10
I want to say one last thing as we’re wrapping so that you’re cutting the confusion and building confidence by leading with clarity. Eliminate the I’m sorry. So as you all know, this is Leading Without the B.S., Unapologetic, unfiltered, unstoppable performance. And that’s what we want for you. We’ll see you next time.