Ep. 13: Most Leadership Training is Bullsh*t. What Now?

Ep. 13 | Transcript

Heather Hopkins: 00:00
What is it that I truly own and how am I showing up in that ownership? Inclusive of your own personal development. Welcome to Leading Without the BS. Unfiltered, unapologetic, unstoppable performance. Most leadership training is bullshit.

Mike Johnson: 00:16
We can say that because we’ve been through a lifetime of it. Both Heather and I have a lot of experience before joining Wingspan, and we’re very familiar with what works and what doesn’t.

Heather Hopkins: 00:26
So let’s talk about it. Mike, before we get into the flow of this, your background matters here. Go ahead and remind our audience who you are, the roles you’ve held, the pressure you’ve lived.

Mike Johnson: 00:37
Yeah. So the team, you know, I won’t share all of that because I’ve introduced myself to the team and to all of our listeners in previous episodes. And I will share that my experience is in manufacturing, and I spent many years in operations, leadership roles across multiple organizations, and have led large teams and major initiatives during that time.

Heather Hopkins: 01:16
My background is similar in manufacturing and engineering, and I had a blast that went by in the blink of an eye. And this topic of leadership training was always a very contested topic on my staff, so I’m excited to talk about it with you today. So, Mike, when it comes to leadership training, when you think back on the times, you showed up to trainings. What mindset were you in before the facilitator even said a word?

Mike Johnson: 01:42
Likely thinking about what I should be working on in that situation rather than what I was actually participating in. So uh, you know, for similar to you, um, in my experience, there was always a lot going on. And so oftentimes in meetings, I was multitasking and underestimating what the impact of that training would have in my life or in the work that I was doing. And many times as I stepped into specifically leadership training, uh, I was not anticipating an outcome that was going to deliver different results for me and my team. And so that’s how I showed up. Uh, and uh, if I showed up, that’s how I showed up, and and in most situations I was multitasking and doing other work that was required of me in that situation.

Heather Hopkins: 02:39
Oh, a hundred percent. I recall going to trainings and there was a pivotal time in my career. There was once upon a time where I was bright-eyed and bushy-tailed and excited to take all the notes and do all the things. Um, and then there was a a moment in my career where I was being counted on to do more work than time, lead more people, have more responsibilities, and I began a very poor behavior of substituting all of that movement for momentum and began to just do and do. And just like you adapted multitasking as heroism, that I was getting all the things done, and if I showed up to leadership training at that point in my career, I can guarantee you I was not present. And at the time, if you would have asked me, I would have said I was and believed it. And that’s one of the biggest lessons that I’ve learned as a leader is that the training starts before the training.

Heather Hopkins: 03:35
Yeah.

Heather Hopkins: 03:36
Like not coming in with that intention to truly learn and be present, not just in trainings, but in any leadership meeting, that’s yeah, no point out.

Mike Johnson: 03:46
Yeah, and when you say that, it’s interesting that you shared that how that shifted over the course of your career, and it reminds me of when I was a new leader, being very open and receptive and excited about leadership, realizing there was a a lot that uh I had to learn and um not having the confidence in myself as a leader, and then now through this self-reflection, realizing even when I I thought that I knew it all, and uh it wasn’t required for me to participate and show up um in a very intentional way, yeah. And that’s how I contributed to some of the outcomes that I had.

Heather Hopkins: 04:30
Yeah, no, spot on. And as a leadership advisor now, what do you see our leaders walking into our trainings?

Mike Johnson: 04:38
Uh there’s a mix. So I definitely see those leaders that have been working with us prior, uh, oftentimes this is a very exciting session. Sometimes it’s the the most exciting session that they uh are looking forward to for the week. And I’ve actually had people uh say that that’s this is their opportunity to take a time out and really put some intentionality into the focus of themselves and the challenges that they face. Uh, and I still see uh some apprehension. So with perhaps new teams in current uh organizations that we’re working with, or with new organizations that are unfamiliar with how we do our work, um, sometimes they are walking in with that same same outlook of what is this going to provide for me? This is another meeting that I’m expected to attend when I’m already overloaded and my inbox is overflowing. Um, how is this going to bring value to me? So I do see both of those perspectives.

Heather Hopkins: 05:45
How do you navigate that?

Mike Johnson: 05:48
Yeah, great question. Uh for me, I just I’m actually working with a team now recently that has some of that perspective. They haven’t been working with Wingspan directly for very long, and some of them it’s the very first time that they are having this type of interaction. And and I share exactly what we’re doing today, my perspective. And uh, you know, I was on a call last week where I told them I understand you’re busy. All of you are. Um and potentially not attend. And so just even using that language, yeah. Um, you see people pop up in their chair and shift their perspective. Uh, and in those sessions, in those moments, I’ve seen you do it, I’ve seen Ivan do it, I’ve seen Kathy do it in those moments, right then on that call, showing people how we’re different and equipping them with tools that apply in their real world situations right now.

Heather Hopkins: 07:12
Yeah. No, that’s fantastic because when in some of our settings we’re virtual. And that can be such a challenge these days to understand what those signals are of is someone tuning in, is someone tuning out, are they is this training landing? And so, what are some of the signals that stand out to you? You mentioned, hey, when I see them sit up. I mean, first of all, the fact that you can see them.

Mike Johnson: 07:38
Yeah.

Heather Hopkins: 07:38
Maybe we should talk through some of the behavioral expectations we uh we support our leaders with.

Mike Johnson: 07:43
Yeah. Well, it’s great that you say that. Uh, you know, our expectations is that. So uh cameras on, yeah, mics unmuted, ready to jump in um and participate. That’s an expectation. We clearly communicate that expectation, and we’re gonna hold you accountable to it. Uh, and you and I have both seen that on our wingspan-led sessions, uh, leaders understand that expectation, and they um typically, without being prompted, uh, are already engaged and participating against those expectations. And then in some of their internal meetings where Wingspan is supporting and not leading, some of those autopilot tendencies come back up where people are off camera. So that’s some of the ways that I see them not being present or showing up as expected is not being on camera.

Heather Hopkins: 08:34
Yeah.

Mike Johnson: 08:34
Or when on camera, multitasking.

Heather Hopkins: 08:37
Yeah.

Mike Johnson: 08:37
You know, you telling yourself you can see when people’s eyes are drifting or they’re reaching for another device, uh, and uh it shows how how engaged and intentional they are in those conversations.

Heather Hopkins: 08:49
So, as both a leader and a leadership advisor, how are you navigating that situation?

Mike Johnson: 08:57
Yeah, so one, resetting the expectation. So, what I do and we do as uh performance advisors at Wingspan is prompt them.

Heather Hopkins: 09:08
Yeah.

Mike Johnson: 09:08
So, you know, very clearly a form of support is that level of accountability, and so prompting them to say, hey Heather, uh uh it looks like you’re distracted. How does this time work for you? Uh and uh people are not um, you know, it’s uncommon for most people to have that level of accountability and for people to willing to support in that way and prompt them. What about for you? What does that look like when you’re in session?

Heather Hopkins: 09:38
So at times it is uh being able to prompt that level of you’re saying you’re engaged and you’re not showing it, and giving that real-time feedback to the individual, um, it’s a little bit humorous because folks will laugh. And then taking that opportunity to demonstrate to the rest of the team this is how you have these conversations. These are the things that at times go unsaid when you’re in a team meeting and someone’s completely checked out or multitasking, and you go, to be that was me. As as I look back on my career, there were moments and times running a 24-7 facility where I was always on my phone and someone was talking to me, and I was here, and uh-huh-uh-I’m sorry, what’d you say? And that was the model of leadership that I looked up to and saw as successful, and so I mirrored that in complete autopilot tendencies. And how often was I called out on it? RARE. And so when we do that real time in our trainings, I know you and I always take the opportunity to say, hey, do you see how we all just had that conversation? How many of you are having those conversations with your peers, with your direct reports, with your leader? And most of the time, no, and we’re not even on camera to begin with. And so I love that we we don’t just say this is leadership training, we’re showing it real time to say, okay, how would you we’re all now counting on each other for you guys to do this real time.

Mike Johnson: 11:08
Absolutely. Yeah, that that right now form of support and um practicing it, exhibiting it, supporting them, equipping them, uh, and and then bringing it back and speaking aloud that that was the intent of that conversation and how that interaction is equipping the entire team to have those conversations um without us uh and support their team members in their real world scenarios with people that perhaps haven’t even had any interaction with Wingspan.

Heather Hopkins: 11:43
No, I love it because when I love seeing the team members’ faces who look shocked, then I’ll call on them, you know, what are you thinking through? Um, and most often they say, I I would never do that. And then you go, do what? I wouldn’t have that conversation with someone who doesn’t report to me and tell them that they’re off track. Really? Let’s talk about that.

Mike Johnson: 12:06
Yeah.

Heather Hopkins: 12:06
And so that’s far more valuable in our wingspan approach than a leadership training going, we’re gonna talk about communication. It’s like, oh gosh, bore me to death.

Mike Johnson: 12:17
Exactly. Yeah, so you you hit something that’s really important, and it’s when leaders first work with us, um there’s different scenarios that they’re introduced to, different tools that they’re equipped with. When when you start working with leaders, uh what what hits them the hardest? What have you seen?

Heather Hopkins: 12:40
At times, leaders are coming in, and when asked, what is your intention and goal to learn? It’s most often how to change other people or change these external processes. If if I could just get this budget, if my you know quality department could just operate in this certain way, um, if my leader would just do this, then everything would work out for me. And it’s really rare that someone comes to the table looking internal. And so one of the hardest challenges at times can be working with leaders and even reflecting on my own experience, reflecting inward to say, what is my contribution in this first? Because I can only own and control myself. And so often leaders are coming in with the intention to be trained on how to solve all these other things externally, and the most powerful thing you can do is start internally. And when they work with Wingspan, most of the time, uh, leaders that’s not industry standard is to start within. And so that’s that’s a hard thing for them to grasp.

Mike Johnson: 13:41
Yeah.

Heather Hopkins: 13:41
How about you?

Mike Johnson: 13:42
Yeah, it’s it’s interesting you say that, you know, as I was thinking about this podcast, and we were having some discussion, um, and thinking about what is different with Wingspan and and how would I communicate that or how will I communicate that to people as I’m working with them. And it made me think back to it, it allowed me to reflect. You know, I took time to reflect and think about how was I showing up as a leader when I was going into these sessions, and a component of it was the content, yeah, and and how it was delivered. Uh, and it in in many situations, it not specifically tying back to what I was accountable for in my role. And then also there was my contribution to how I was showing up to those sessions, uh, you know, not being intentional uh and actively participating and being actively engaged in those training sessions, and then also holding myself accountable to take that information and put it into practice, uh with it also many times the content itself uh not directly correlating, and and that’s what I see is really powerful in what we do is that one, the tools are applicable in every situation, uh, and then two we practice with you uh in our sessions, in their work environments, uh putting those reps into practice and showing um how they can hold themselves accountable to practice and to delivering real change.

Heather Hopkins: 15:44
When has been a moment in your coaching where you saw that leadership transformation take place with a client?

Mike Johnson: 15:56
Yeah, just recently uh I have been working with a a leader that very technically sound leader uh uh and not getting the expected results from their team. And so it’s interesting as you’re asking questions uh of what challenges are you facing and how have you approached these conversations previously, yeah, that most often there’s not a lot of questions being asked and a lot of assumptions being made.

Heather Hopkins: 16:40
Yeah.

Mike Johnson: 16:40
Words like I think, I feel, uh, as they’re explaining how those people are showing up and how those expectations are being met. And very often, and with this particular leader, them coming to the realization of oh wow, I didn’t say that out loud, uh, especially around behavioral expectations. Um I’m a high performer, and this is how I show up, and so why doesn’t everyone show up that way? And then realizing that that was their contribution, and for this particular leader, that was his contribution, was not clearly articulating those expectations, uh, and then becoming frustrated when people were not meeting unsaid uh expectations.

Heather Hopkins: 17:36
I I can resonate with that, and sometimes when we go to approach training, even myself, reflecting back on my own career, would think, well, I’m gonna behave this way in this session because it’s allowable. Because this isn’t as important as the other things going on. This this training is a bolt-on to my real job. And in going through wingspan and in challenging and understanding, you know, who we are is who we are, and how we choose to show up in one moment is and that autopilot tendency of how you’re coming in uh shows up in other areas. And so recently I’ve had clients who say, Well, Heather, I’m just talking like this and acting like this in this setting. That’s not how I am in my everyday environment. Oh, that’s awesome. Can I can I go with you? Yeah, you can spend the day with me. It is absolutely how they spend their time, and they’re simply unaware. And what is so fascinating with with Wingspan and the training and what I wish I would have had younger in my career was a lot more awareness of my own leadership presence, what it was and what it wasn’t. Because what I thought it was and how I thought I was presenting myself, and where I thought I was giving myself allowable excuses, um was so it was my own little narrative. And training and leadership coaching provide such great clarity from an unbiased perspective, and I didn’t understand the value of that as much in my career. I focused a lot more on the doing and the going and the being, and I see myself in our clients when they’re coming to the table. And so, Mike, I’m sure you’ve heard someone say, Hey, I’d really love to meet with you today, but I’ve got so many things to do, and I’m already behind. This week’s short, it’s Thanksgiving, I’ve got all these things to do. Uh, can we just meet another time? How do you handle those conversations, especially with repeat offenders?

Mike Johnson: 19:37
Yeah, it’s what’s the cost and how is important to you? Why is this you know, why is this meeting on our calendars? What is the cost that your frustration, uh, that the challenge that you’re facing, what is it having on you? And what is likely to happen if we just continue down this path? So Us not having this meeting shows that it’s either not important to you or you don’t understand the costs. And so helping them to understand there are there are outcomes of all of the decisions you make, whether they’re intentional or accidental. And so realizing that am I going to take an intentional approach to my calendar and manage my workload? Or am I going to let it accidentally manage what I’m doing and what I’m focusing on? And what are the outcomes going to be based on how I make that decision? And so sharing how important it is to them. And then also depending on the relationship and how closely you work with them, setting it up, giving them a time and a date that I expect that meeting to take place and reminding them of how important it is. And that I am raising the intensity of this conversation because I understand the importance and I am here to support you. And this is a healthy form of support, is me holding you accountable.

Heather Hopkins: 21:18
That’s so good. I recently was co-creating a session with you where I recall a team members saying, Hey, y’all just wouldn’t understand the pressures and things that we’re navigating through. And you stood on conviction and said, Challenge me, I dare you to. And it’s it’s you know, everyone kind of laughed and then went dead silent, like, oh no, what’s gonna happen? And the gentleman presented his case of this is what I’m navigating through. And it was so wonderful to see everyone taking notes and tuning in, and you being able to support them in navigating through their leadership dilemma. And that is why I will say, with my own conviction, most leadership training is bullshit. So if you are a leader out there responsible for people and processes, and you’ve got more things to do than time, you’re not alone. And as you’re navigating through what are value add trainings, value add trainings when you’re navigating through those decisions as a leader, are ones that will meet you and your team where they’re at. It will not force a tool to be the tool that you use, it will embrace what is the real world that you’re navigating through, and we will utilize these tools to support you to get further faster. And that is something that we do real time in all of our sessions. And once our clients see, hey, this isn’t training, this is real time right now. I am being equipped, supported, and coached through this problem that has been a sticky wicket. Boom, we see the momentum.

Mike Johnson: 22:54
Yeah, we’re truly partners uh with our clients and the organizations that we work with. If that wasn’t the case, I wouldn’t be sitting here, and likely, Heather, knowing you, you wouldn’t be sitting here either because um it’s different working for an organization and building those relationships with people in our experiences in manufacturing. Yeah, and that was something that actually I had hesitancy stepping into this role to be advising others in their workspace and um being very intentional about um my accountability for this role uh and how I hold myself accountable is that I am part of their team. Uh I’m not an additional uh external resource that um is just gonna come in and give you some feedback and then step aside. Uh we build real relationships with our clients and we partner with them on powerful uh solutions to the challenges that they’re facing. Um and it’s exciting. It’s exciting to see the shift in them, and it’s exciting to see the shift in us as we’re also working through this journey.

Heather Hopkins: 24:13
What would you say, what will you say is the largest shift you’ve made as a leader in your time with Wingspan and with our clients?

Mike Johnson: 24:25
It is being very intentional about the language that I use, uh realizing that every word that I choose is methodical and specific so that I have the intent of influencing the other individual or the conversation and the outcomes. Uh we are encouraged in our past, and we see it oftentimes. You and I were having a conversation about this earlier that we work with all different industries.

Heather Hopkins: 25:04
Yeah.

Mike Johnson: 25:05
And one common thing that you hear is the same terminology. You know, we’re using the same language across many different businesses, and people sound the same and they expect different results. And what I found through the Wingspan system and what we do is that sounding different and being very intentional with the language that you use and removing the bubble rep, it truly changes the way people listen to you and your ability to influence those outcomes that you are intending to have. That has been a game changer for me. And then also asking more questions and asking more questions is so powerful, and it’s really supported me in my personal life as well. With two teenagers who are not very interested in talking a lot, uh asking uh advancing questions uh really uh puts them in a place where they’re thinking and they’re sharing much more than they ever have, so it’s really exciting.

Heather Hopkins: 26:07
Oh, that’s wonderful. For all of our leaders that are listening today, Mike, what is one behavior that you would have them practice today that would move everything forward for them?

Mike Johnson: 26:23
That that’s it. Asking questions. If you were to only take one thing away, to ask more questions and start with a what or a how. Uh I didn’t realize myself, yeah, and I I see how many other leaders come to that realization as they begin to ask more questions, how many assumptions they were making around why people are behaving a certain way or why they’re getting certain outcomes and really putting the work on themselves to try to think through that rather than just going and asking the question of other people.

Heather Hopkins: 27:07
Oh, 100%.

Mike Johnson: 27:08
Well what about from your perspective?

Heather Hopkins: 27:11
Ownership. So I would encourage all leaders to truly sit down and ask themselves, what is it that I truly own and how am I showing up in that ownership, inclusive of your own personal development? Something I would challenge our listeners to do today is when is the last time you invested in your own personal development and truly aimed it at increasing your performance in your whole life and gave it your all 100% ownership in that. And if it’s been longer than a couple of months or a year, it is time to get re-engaged with intention, like you’re mentioning. And that will shift everything. Being able to come in with that level of ownership, that level of active presence and engagement and questions so that you’re investing in yourself to be able to continue to invest in others.

Mike Johnson: 28:11
Yeah, and starting with self is so powerful. You mentioned that, and asking questions of yourself. And we talked a little bit earlier around what’s your contribution. So understanding that and really asking those advancing questions of yourself is a great form of support for yourself to understand how am I showing up, how am I contributing to these outcomes, uh, and then beginning a partner with what is the what is the outcome that we are going to co-create together.

Heather Hopkins: 28:44
Because Mike, when when you and I stood on business and said, hey, most leadership training is bullshit. Um what would you offer our listeners as we’re rounding out this session? Some of the takeaways from that.

Mike Johnson: 28:57
Yeah. That what we do at Wingspan is far beyond training. Uh when I think of training, it is something that either somebody comes in and gives me some information and then I I leave and I practice it on my own, or that I can actually take that training independently by myself and then put it into practice. Uh, and oftentimes when I think about leadership training, it’s extra work. Uh, and it is great concepts that many of us as leaders in organizations are uncertain how we’re to apply it to our everyday uh challenges.

Heather Hopkins: 29:43
Yeah.

Mike Johnson: 29:43
What’s different about Wingspan is that these are tools that equip you to deliver the intended outcomes every day. They’re applicable in every situation. And on whether we are having a one-hour call or we’re working in somebody’s um facility, uh, we are able to real-time deliver results and we continue to partner with people through their challenges as they’re navigating the change within themselves and then navigating those changes within their organizations.

Heather Hopkins: 30:20
Oh well. That inspires me. And if it inspires you guys, Mike and I are here for the challenge. You know, Mike and I have lived it, we’ve learned it, and we have positioned ourselves in this career to support others navigating through this. So if this is resonating or you’re thinking this still sounds like bullshit, challenge accepted. Reach out to us. Mike mentioned, we work with all different industries, all different leaders, and we got into this career to be able to support you. And so reach out.

Mike Johnson: 30:48
Looking forward to it.